Edmunds Answers

Voted Best Answer

  • avatar jack137 03/27/09 2:30 am PST

    Your replies show a lack of experience with this piece of gear, so why keep expounding on a belief you have rather than on an understanding based on experience? I asked for information on where to get a TP oil filter, not for personal opinions on its effectiveness. Please don't knock it if you haven't tried it. That's a disservice to your readers. See why below.

    My introduction to toilet paper oil filters came through Hot VW's Magazine in the late-'60's. An article dealt with finding a solution to very short engine life (only 200-300 miles) in VW-based dune buggies used in the Baja-Mexico races of the period. The culprit was the abundant, very fine alkaline dust in that area. The author made a series of tests on his dune buggy by having a laboratory perform three AIRCRAFT ENGINE OIL ANALYSES. These were: 1.- No filter (OEM configuration) 2.- Aftermarket spin-on filter (as raced) and 3.- Toilet paper oil filter.

    The comparison chart of results showed a vast improvement in the removal of contaminants from the engine oil by the added spin-on filter (down to 25 microns). The baseline OEM engine configuration (no filter) was included only for comparison. The filtered engine was the one that died after not more than 300 miles of racing because it permitted alkaline powder to pass through the filter. The toilet paper oil filter removed everything above 0.5 microns and the engine survived the race. So this field test and the engine oil analysis provided useful information about how to protect an engine from some of the harshest field conditions on the planet.

    On the basis of this article, I installed and operated a toilet paper oil filter on my car (1970 Renault R16) for 100,000 miles, beginning in 1972 and ending in 1977, when I traded the car for a new one due to problems with body rust-through. A mechanic bought my car intending to use it as spare parts for his car. Instead, he made his own car the parts donor when he discovered that the engine in my car was like new (he had torn it down to see what he could use). He contacted me to ask when I'd replaced the engine and was astonished when told that it was the original engine. I told him about the TP oil filter, which I had kept for use it my new car.

    The benefits of using a TP filter were increased fuel economy and power over the 100,000 miles (5 years) I operated the filter, a welcome situation during a period containing two energy crises. I didn't discover the effect it would have on engine longevity until after I had sold the car.

    Based on the experience of both the author of the magazine article and myself, I don't believe that we just "got away with it". The author's approach to sophisticated oil testing and then using these scientific results to immediately get practical results made sense to me. My experience also proved that TP oil filters are both safe and highly effective. It's the reason I'm now looking for another TP oil filter. The original one was lost with the second car.

    With the memory of $4 gasoline still fresh, I decided to install TP filters on the family cars for the significant mileage increase. The reduction in engine wear is a secondary consideration, but is nonetheless welcome.

    Thanks and appreciation goes to another reply giving me a TP oil filter brand name.






    Source: Hot VW's Magazine, mid-to-late 1960's issue. Testing the toilet paper oil filter in a Baja Bug.

Answers

  • MrShift@Edmunds 03/18/09 4:58 pm PST

    well if you eliminate the engine you will certainly reduce the wear.

    I'm glad you got away with it, but TP filters are not a good idea. They clog up pretty fast and so you are running unfiltered oil through the by-pass system.

  • karjunkie 03/18/09 5:29 pm PST

    The Frantz Oil filter is still sold and you can go to http://www.frantzoil.com/home.html to read about it. Contrary to popular belief, it does not substitute for an oil filter but is run as a seperate filter. These filters are a by-pass filter and not a full flow filter, designed to remove moisture and smaller microns of contamination from the oil as a compliment to the regular oil filter. This is a very popular add on to diesel trucks in particular. There are several other brands, but I believe the Frantz is one of the originals from the 1950s. Here is a site that discusses the filter along with several pictures of the filter and how it is installed and works:

    http://www.cumminsforum.com/articles/ar
    ticles/18/1/Anatomy-of-a-Frantz-toilet-
    paper-bypass-oil-filter/Page1.html


    I think there is no real proof these filters add any value to the existing oil filter and most certainly could void your warranty. On the other hand, I have not heard anything to make me believe they can harm the engine. Even Frantz encourages you to use their own filter element instead of the paper roll it can accept.

  • MrShift@Edmunds 03/18/09 7:28 pm PST

    I simply do not see the point of having one on the car, by-pass or no. Modern oil filters do a fabulous job, and the idea of judging oil by how "clean it looks" on the dipstick is about as reliable as judging whether water is poisoned or not by how it looks. I guess if you swapped out the tissue roll frequently, as in VERY frequently, and added oil, you might feel better.

    As for voiding the warranty against an engine failure claim, the answer is DEFINITELY.


  • jack137 03/27/09 2:30 am PST

    Your replies show a lack of experience with this piece of gear, so why keep expounding on a belief you have rather than on an understanding based on experience? I asked for information on where to get a TP oil filter, not for personal opinions on its effectiveness. Please don't knock it if you haven't tried it. That's a disservice to your readers. See why below.

    My introduction to toilet paper oil filters came through Hot VW's Magazine in the late-'60's. An article dealt with finding a solution to very short engine life (only 200-300 miles) in VW-based dune buggies used in the Baja-Mexico races of the period. The culprit was the abundant, very fine alkaline dust in that area. The author made a series of tests on his dune buggy by having a laboratory perform three AIRCRAFT ENGINE OIL ANALYSES. These were: 1.- No filter (OEM configuration) 2.- Aftermarket spin-on filter (as raced) and 3.- Toilet paper oil filter.

    The comparison chart of results showed a vast improvement in the removal of contaminants from the engine oil by the added spin-on filter (down to 25 microns). The baseline OEM engine configuration (no filter) was included only for comparison. The filtered engine was the one that died after not more than 300 miles of racing because it permitted alkaline powder to pass through the filter. The toilet paper oil filter removed everything above 0.5 microns and the engine survived the race. So this field test and the engine oil analysis provided useful information about how to protect an engine from some of the harshest field conditions on the planet.

    On the basis of this article, I installed and operated a toilet paper oil filter on my car (1970 Renault R16) for 100,000 miles, beginning in 1972 and ending in 1977, when I traded the car for a new one due to problems with body rust-through. A mechanic bought my car intending to use it as spare parts for his car. Instead, he made his own car the parts donor when he discovered that the engine in my car was like new (he had torn it down to see what he could use). He contacted me to ask when I'd replaced the engine and was astonished when told that it was the original engine. I told him about the TP oil filter, which I had kept for use it my new car.

    The benefits of using a TP filter were increased fuel economy and power over the 100,000 miles (5 years) I operated the filter, a welcome situation during a period containing two energy crises. I didn't discover the effect it would have on engine longevity until after I had sold the car.

    Based on the experience of both the author of the magazine article and myself, I don't believe that we just "got away with it". The author's approach to sophisticated oil testing and then using these scientific results to immediately get practical results made sense to me. My experience also proved that TP oil filters are both safe and highly effective. It's the reason I'm now looking for another TP oil filter. The original one was lost with the second car.

    With the memory of $4 gasoline still fresh, I decided to install TP filters on the family cars for the significant mileage increase. The reduction in engine wear is a secondary consideration, but is nonetheless welcome.

    Thanks and appreciation goes to another reply giving me a TP oil filter brand name.






    Source: Hot VW's Magazine, mid-to-late 1960's issue. Testing the toilet paper oil filter in a Baja Bug.

  • MrShift@Edmunds 03/27/09 11:40 am PST

    Which is why toilet paper filters have swept the nation and driven all other conventional filters off the market?

    The reason why you can't find a TP oil filter is simple---regular oil filters do a fabulous job already and have made the TP oil filter a relic of days gone by, when many engines in the 50s, and certainly old VWs, didn't even HAVE an oil filter!


    Sorry, dont' wish to be sarcastic, but I'm not buying it, and neither will a factory warranty. In THAT respect, I don't think I'm doing a disservice to members by cautioning them.

    You may do whatever you wish to your Renault and I'm really GLAD you've had great results, but I'm not going to tell someone with a brand new Mercedes to put a TP oil filter in it.

    Factory engineers are real smart people. They've been to expensive universities and they know how to design oil filters and car engines. If they don't think TP oil filters are the hot patootey anymore, neither do I. Any modern car right out of the showroom will have an engine in it that can 175,000 miles reliably.

    The TP oil filter is the answer to a question nobody is asking anymore, IMO.






  • jack137 03/27/09 6:38 pm PST

    I understand why you're saying what you're saying, but now let me tell you that the road to worthwhile automotiuve change is littered with the carcasses of many innovators who have tried to convince Detroit to change its ways. A certain Mr. Tucker could tell you how true that is, but he's dead. Detroit engineers, managers, and the schools that teach automotive technology and engineering have long been afflicted with the "NIH" syndrome. Mr Vince Carman can help you out there. Back in October or November of 1977, there was a cover page on Popular Science or Popular Mechanics showing a schematic of a hydraulic energy-storing automotive drive system invented by Mr. Carman. Anyone capable of reading this schematic and following the story inside soon realized that this system design basically came from the similar diesel-hydraulic design used on certain locomotives. Mr. Carman had adapted this design to automobiles and added to it to arrive at an energy-storing capability that was the equivalent to today's full gas-electric hybrids like the Prius. The Canadian Ford with a 302 V8 and the Hydraulic equipment aboard added 800 lbs. to the weight of the car, but the vehicle still topped 40 mpg.

    Now here's the part that stinks: Mr. Carman made the rounds of all the US Automakers and his ideas were unanimously rejected. Why? Because his ideas were "Not Invented Here". Since he was not employed by any car company, they could not just take his patented ideas for free. They would have had to pay him a royalty on each unit made. Finally, an unidentified "magnanimous individual" gave Mr. Carman a large sum of money to "go and refine" his ideas. Last I heard, Mr. Carman had disappeared somewhere in California, hopefully to pursue development. But since there has been no further news, it may be that Mr. Carman was really told to "just take the money and run - or else".

    What is Detroit going to do with the engineer in California who has installed a second battery and an on-board rectifier with a plugin AC cable to double the range of his Prius, and end up raising the gas mpg to about 100? Wait until he covers all the horizontal sheet-metal on his Prius with the cheap new solar cells being printed on mylar sheets, enabling the car to charge its batteries with free solar energy even while he's in a building working all day.

    Today we FINALLY have a number of Gas-Electric hybrids that achieve the same results that Mr. Carman had 32 years ago. Furthermore, Detroit has STRONGLY RESISTED every effort by the Feds to improve the CAFE of the vehicles they make, preferring instead to sell cheap pick-up-truck-based SUV's that got ever-worsening mpg's due to more and more powerful engines even as we went from one oil crisis to another - all in the name of short-term profits. I still recall the screaming and sobbing as carmakers had to install pollution controls on all cars in the early '70's.

    Have you ever heard of a process whereby old engine oil can be totally cleaned of all its contaminants and re-used? All it takes it two containers and a length of heavy hemp rope. Capillary action wicks the old oil through the rope into the lower, clean container - removing all the dirt in the process of slowly migrating through 3' of rope. Oh, I forgot! This is not a process approved by ASAE or the car manufacturers - it will void your warranty! It will ruin your engine! In the meantime, the oil makers and oil producers get obscenely rich at everyone else's expense and the atmosphere, water and earth get more polluted. "Ah-hh, let them go max out another credit card"!

    That's insane. We keep being warned by these same "people" that the bogey-man will come for us in the form of higher prices for everything unless the profiteers get their way. Well, I have kids and grand-kids, and I want them to live in a cleaner environment than we have now, with fewer diseases and deteriorating nervous sytems than we have now. Please tell me if this is asking too much, and why.

    Thank you for your attention..


    Source: Popular Science; Popular Mechanics

  • MrShift@Edmunds 03/28/09 10:53 am PST

    Preston Tucker's car was an underdeveloped hodge-podge of a car, with a helicopter engine and the transmission from a 1930s Cord. You can easily break the axles of the car by starting in first gear. No Tucker owner uses first gear for this reason. You can also easily wrap them around a tree due to the severe oversteer characteristics of the car. Yes, old Tuckers are worth a lot of money, but it's because of the myth, not the car.

    These 'inventors" were not suppressed by anyone. Their products were not good enough to compete and so they died. It's as simple as that. Tucker was not an engineer, and he was also not a very good businessman.

    How many rear-engined 4-door passenger cars do we have today? That's right....NONE.

    Everybody thinks that the guy in his garage is smarter than trained engineers. It's the American Myth, still going strong.

    It's easy to be clever when your car doesn't have to stand up to a warranty, emissions laws, safety regulations, corporate regulations, ethical business practice, and competition. If (when) that guy's Prius catches fire and burns to the ground, nobody gets sued...he just loses his car and then the rumors start about how Detroit set it on fire to retaliate against him.

    anyway, fun talking with you, and good luck with your car.








  • vintagecarbuff 02/01/10 12:27 am PST

    I don't know who sells the Tp filters anymore but I definately want to know.

    I still have two of the Original "Frantz" oil filters on one of my Vehicles and the other filter is for a backup if need be.
    as for the guy who says they will void the Warenty he's so full of it. In '72 when my Dad bought his Ford pickup with a 302 in Tulsa we drove it right from the show room floor and straight home.
    My grandfather was a distributer at that time for "Frantz" and we waited for him to send us a filter before Dad started driving the truck. After recieving the filter and installing it, this truck was drivin daily.
    the process involved after Installation,was to fill crankcase with one extra quart (due to filter cap) and add a roll of single ply tissue..some people like to call it John Wayne tp..then instead of changing the oil and original filter every 3k miles..(average). you would just replace the tp at every 1k miles and add 1qt. of oil, then at each 7k miles you do an entire oil change and replace original filter and the Tp filter. The tp turns gray because of the water it absorbs from the oil..

    Dad maintained this truck thru all Warranties, and when I acquired it in '79 this engine had 99999.9 miles on the odomiter by the time I got it. I took the heads to a Company in Lawton where I was stationed to have the Heads shaved 20k and do a valve job on them. but they only replaced the Valve guides they refused to shave the Heads because it wasn't needed...When I asked why? he said that the Heads weren't even a 1k of an inch from the FACTORY specs.

    When I asked how this was possible he pointed to the "FRANTZ" filter and said that was the reason...it saved the wear and tear on it...

    Understand this I knew Dad never had any trouble with this pickup, I never did either I just thought after all those years it wouldn't hurt to have the heads freshend up some..little did I know that it wasn't needed.. My truck went on to live another few years before a friend drove and totaled it. I however pulled the Motor and trany and installed it in another '72 the following year and she stayed loyal to me for several more years until I pulled it and stored the engine. and the storage building was set on fire.

    Anyone who actually tries these filters will be happy with the results if not contact me and I'll buy it from you..I have alot of people asking to buy mine because they know how good these work...

    as for the guy who said that cars in the fifty's didn't have oil filters he's nuts...I restored vintage cars never had one NOT have a filter.


  • cruisinlou 02/05/10 7:32 pm PST

    In answer to the statement that all cars that this person had were equipped with oil filters
    Remember the 1957 Chevrolet 6 cylinder, it did not have a oil filter but you could buy a kit that
    had a filter holder, brackets, and tubings with fittings to go in and out of the side of the engine block, it seemed to be designed for a filter but didn't normally come with one.
    Also as far as TP filters are concerned why would anybody want to take a chance that the TP you are using is a perfumed type that could contaminate the oil, a good oil filter is very cheap insurance and will be the correct one for your car.

  • bigboyinms 12/08/10 2:53 pm PST

    I've got to say that there is a lot of mis-information in this thread. I actually think a couple of the people previously posting are under the assumption that the TP filter REPLACES your original filter. You actually keep your original filtering and the TP filter is added parallel to your factory full flow filter to more finely filter a small amount of oil continuously.
    1. Given, most factory oil filters do a good job and with the good air filtration, good oil, efficient engine designs, etc. most engines will go 200k miles these days. But what's wrong with going the extra step to filter your oil even better and extend oil life?
    2. TP oil filters will not automatically void an auto warranty. The only way a warranty claim can be denied is if they can prove your TP filter was the cause of the failure. (Per the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act.)
    3. TP filter media does not come apart and clog your oil system.
    4. I have to say this quote is pretty silly... "They clog up pretty fast and so you are running unfiltered oil through the by-pass system."
    Actually, if your TP filter did clog up it only means you don't have the EXTRA filtering not that you have NO filtering. You still have the factory filter doing it's job.
    5. Another quote. "TP filters are a relic." They are not as popular today because everyone expects a hi-tech looking package. Amsoil, Gulf Coast filters and others sell bypass filters that are spin-on or have a more modern appearance but they don't do any better at bypass filtering than a TP.
    6. The only other thing that I'll comment on... better oil filtering can only keep your engine oil cleaner and extend the oils life by cleaning the contaminants from it. It doesn't affect head warpage, fuel mileage or how lucky you get with the girls. But it would be nice!

    By the way, I don't know of any other TP filter companies other than Frantz (still in business) but there are a few others that sell bypass filtering kits. All are more expensive. Amsoil and Gulf Coast Filters to name a couple.

  • revmoose 12/16/10 1:30 pm PST

    I thought that I would add my two cents to this discussion.

    I remembered that several friends had the original toilet paper filters back in the 50s and 60s and how well they worked, so decided to ask a friend, recently, about them. He is a master machinist (worked for the government on Mare Island for a number of years), a very qualified mechanic, and currently operates a company doing onsite maintenance for large corporate truck and auto fleets in the S.F. Bay area.

    When I asked him what he thought of them and if they were worth using, he walked me over to his pickup, raised the hood, and showed me the one he has been taking off of vehicles and transferring every time he sold one and bought another for over 40 years. Says in his experience every one of the engines on those vehicles was almost like new when he sold them, and he credited the TP filters.

    I asked what happened to them and why they were no longer easily available today. Said that Franz bought the patents from the original developer and as soon as they had them, quit production to protect their filter business. He said that they now have them in limited amounts, but nothing is done to promote them or make them easily available.

    He said my best bet if I wanted to find one was to look for used ones on e-bay, etc., and that as a machinist he could vouch that they would be worth whatever I had to pay for them.

    Source: 

  • dedicated_dad 07/17/11 11:04 pm PST

    We filter it dot com is the ORIGINAL company making the Frantz filter.

    Apparently the inventor's daughter moved from CA to ID and took the business with her...

    For the naysayers - it's a BYPASS filter - doesn't interfere with existing filter at all - just takes a little bit of oil at a time and allows it to drip through a roll of TP, removing water (up to 6oz) and particles down to 1/2 micron.

    Oil will keep on looking like new - THAT is how much crap it removes from your oil!

    Though I won't do it, I know people who NEVER change oil - they change the TP and top off, running vehicles for over 250k miles and selling still running good with innards of engine looking new.

    Why don't manufacturers install them? SIMPLE! Why WOULD they -- it would cut into their business!

    Ever heard of the term "planned obsolescence"?

    Source: internet

  • xcarcraft 10/07/11 4:32 pm PST

    http://jackmasteroilfilters.com.au
    www.gulfcoastfilters.com
    www.kleenoilfiltrationusa.com
    www.amsoil.com/Storefront/bf.aspx
    To put a bypass filter in a new vehicle at manufacture would be extremely expensive!
    Extremely with no long term benifit to company profits. Even if we say for nonsence sake it costs a company $50 to add to a vehicle ( bare in mind that if you factored in parts and labor it would cost the average joe around $400 for a less stella instalation)
    now pull out a calculator because I guarantee you won't have enough grey wiskers on your beard let alone fingers and toes to multiply it by 300000 for a vehicle run, or if you like In 2008, Ford produced 5.532 million vehicles so Yeah it would look bad for bean counters....


  • woodysenior 10/20/11 6:48 pm PST

    Here is your answer, if you go to this website and go to the left side and you will find catalog. You can purchase the filter system there online


    Source: http://www.frantzoil.com/home.html

  • mjr57belair 08/01/12 10:13 pm PST

    I know this is an old topic but I just ran
    across this and after reading some of
    the negative answers I decided to add
    my story for the positive side about
    this cool filter. I bought this oil filter back
    in 1964 for my then 1958 Chevy BelAir
    race car and of course I was very happy
    how this filter was keeping the engine
    oil very clean. Anyway I know use this filter
    occasionally to clean the Amsoil
    transmission oil using a by-pass valve in
    my heavy duty Dodge diesel truck towing
    a very heavy trailer and it works great
    saving me around $200 - $300 to replace
    this tranny oil.
    I am very happy I bought this cool filter
    and I'm very glad to see that this filter is
    still around after all these years...mj



  • balboa2 12/07/12 4:40 pm PST

    http://www.frantzoil.com/home.html
    I wanted to add my experience to the lot. I bought a new 74 Olds 98 - the big one with a 455 eng. Thirsty, for sure. Being military, we drove everywhere in the country. I put this device on my Olds at about 1 yr old. I drove it for some 150K miles without any problems, EVER!

    All I did was drain the old oil, install the device, and put in 4 qts of oil. Button it up. Start the eng and let the oil circulate to the filter, running it for 30 sec was fine. Then, top it off. Once a month I put in a new roll of TP and added 1 qt of oil. Easy-peasy! I didn't see great changes in MPG, but I would match the cleanliness of the oil in that engine with anybody - including that expensive synthetic stuff. My plugs were cleaner and the engine ran smoothly. That may not sound impressive, but our assignments were in S Dakota and Omaha, and we drove back and forth to San Antonio fairly often without incident. Clean oil is the key to long engine life. I put that same filter on a Chevelle 396 and Dodge Charger after that. I can't say enough good things about it. But timely maintenance is always common sense. Change the TP and add fresh oil.

    I think one reason we don't see more of them is people are put off by the installation. You have to find an oil source, a plug to the oil lines you can connect to, and you have to drill a hole in the pan for the return line. I think that scares people away for fear they'll screw it up. That's it.

  • filtersalesman 02/19/13 2:55 am PST

    Regarding these issues about by-pass filtering, Cummins(one of the worlds largest manufacturers of diesel engines), Volvo, Scania, Caterpillar engines use By-pass filters these days. For example , Volvo use 2pcs of full flow filters and one by-pass filter on many of their engines. The reason why cars don`t have them is simple. Money, it cost money to fit them from the beginning. An ordinary car runs, let`s say about 300 000km(about 200 000 miles) and teh manufacturer think it`s enough, they will rather sell a new car than a lot of by-pass filters.......

ADVERTISEMENT

Top Engine Engine oil Experts View More

Rank Leader Points
1. MrShift@Edmunds 1305
2. karjunkie 710
3. zaken1 570
4. Stever@Edmunds 535
5. texases 290
6. morin2 235
7. 0patience 165
ADVERTISEMENT